This caughg me in suspense until you moved to Portugal part! There I cracked a laugh! You might enjoy knowing that still in the pronouns exercise, a few decades back you would encounter the pronoun “vossemecê” or “vosmecê” for short, probably it was a way to detour from the você that only certain social stratum still use daily to address between themselves (despite age), although to exemplify in this specific situations many times pronouns are replaced by the article and their familiar name (tio, nickname etc) like you mentioned.
To create a brain freeze this also has an another approach according to age gender, especially with kids.
This is great! As a brasileiro falado speaker it’s often been a revelation here in Portugal as I learn to adapt. BTW, have you read Latin em Pó? A great history of brasileiro falado and the divergence of the two forms.
Fun fact and explanation about the Portuguese «você» = a half-formal «you» in Portugal and an informal «you» in Brasil. (This is just for starters. The main course follows.) Sooo... where did the word «você» come? [Please forgive me for writing some words in capital letters, but since I cannot make paragraphs, it shows things more clearly.] Here goes the main course: A long, long time ago, a way people addressed nobility (I mean someone belonging to a higher social level or - simply - someone «above» you) was VOSSA MERCÊ (literally «Your Mercy»). Then, as we, Portuguese do, we just squeeze the words together, it became VOSSEMECÊ (or VOCEMECÊ, because we are poor spellers). What happened next? More squeezing: VOMECÊ! Since it wasn't tight enough, we did it (Yey!), and we now say... VOCÊ! (Yep. Main course served. The dessert comes next...) So, nowadays it can be found (said and spelled) as: 'CÊ. And I am pleased to finish with: «Vai um cafezinho?»
I’m in awe of your nuanced understanding, it’s not easy to pick up the literally unspoken rules. One added perspective is on “você” sounding snobbish- older people would say “você é estrebaria”, meaning, “você is what you use in the horse stables”. On a meta-level: “figure out how to address me, you don’t get to default to the simplest norm”. So not only it’s complicated but there is a high social cost to getting it wrong… so I would use the word “snobbish“ but in its original meaning, “sans noblesse” ☺️ Apologies if that complicates the Portuguese life further
I read this amusing piece over breakfast and it brought back several conversations we had in Sweden about the topic of politeness. I remember appreciating your nuanced reading of this issue, and it allowed me not to take the uncanny mix of reserve and plain rudeness in Scandinavian manners too personally (I still did though, a friend of mine summarised Swedish customer service philosophy with the phrase "How may we not help you?"). But when it comes to "you" and "thou," I always assumed that "thou" dropped out of the language as a result of the reformation, but I might be entirely wrong about this and I never bothered to research it. Is it not the case that "thou" disappeared after the Protestants started using it to address God in a more personal fashion (assuming the deity is a singular entity), the paradoxical result being that it then could no longer fill the role of informal "you" in everyday conversation. So people just stopped using it altogether. Is there any scientific foundation for this hypothesis?
Michael, thank you for your thoughtful comment. Historical linguistics is not my area of speciality, so I can't speak with much authority here, but my understanding is that it was more the influence of societal changes that pushed out "thou" and caused "you"—seen as the more polite form—to take over. As far as I know, "thou" was always used when addressing God directly, as is typical in other European languages. (Not sure what God's preference is!)
By the way, I love the expression "How may we not help you?" Very funny!
I will have to ask my French-speaking informants and get back to you. I think that in other Romance languages, using "tu" with God is quite common, but I will check.
And I who thought German was puzzling... Really enjoyed reading this, which popped up just as I looked for a break from the annoying newsletter of mine I'm trying to wrap up!
Thanks for this piece1 Turkish, like German, has a formal version of "you." When I first learned English, I found it challenging to adjust to a language without this distinction. But now, after living in English-speaking countries for 30 years, I find it difficult to use the formal "you" when I switch back to Turkish.
Thanks, Selda! Interesting—do you also find that the norms around who should be addressed formally have changed at all in Turkey during the past 30 years?
I guess that's not too surprising. I guess it's not too surprising that there hasn't been as strong a shift towards informality in Turkey. I do wish I could speak Turkish—it's a fascinating language from a linguistic perspective.
Yes, Lisa, I agree: Language is fun. And confusing. The lack of "please" in Swedish is funny, as are the things you have to say instead, such as "snälla du"—literally "nice you". 😂
I am not at all competent to talk about Finnish, I'm afraid. Maybe I can find someone else who is.
I don’t many Finnish language learners who feel competent either 😂
And the “Tack, snälla!” makes me chuckle. If people on Åland you know they’re either 1. Swedish, 2. Have lived in Sweden or 3. Listen to too much Swedish TV or radio 😂😂
This caughg me in suspense until you moved to Portugal part! There I cracked a laugh! You might enjoy knowing that still in the pronouns exercise, a few decades back you would encounter the pronoun “vossemecê” or “vosmecê” for short, probably it was a way to detour from the você that only certain social stratum still use daily to address between themselves (despite age), although to exemplify in this specific situations many times pronouns are replaced by the article and their familiar name (tio, nickname etc) like you mentioned.
To create a brain freeze this also has an another approach according to age gender, especially with kids.
This is great! As a brasileiro falado speaker it’s often been a revelation here in Portugal as I learn to adapt. BTW, have you read Latin em Pó? A great history of brasileiro falado and the divergence of the two forms.
Thanks, Justine! No, I haven't read it, but one day I hope to. I'll have to get a copy and put it on The Stack.
Fun fact and explanation about the Portuguese «você» = a half-formal «you» in Portugal and an informal «you» in Brasil. (This is just for starters. The main course follows.) Sooo... where did the word «você» come? [Please forgive me for writing some words in capital letters, but since I cannot make paragraphs, it shows things more clearly.] Here goes the main course: A long, long time ago, a way people addressed nobility (I mean someone belonging to a higher social level or - simply - someone «above» you) was VOSSA MERCÊ (literally «Your Mercy»). Then, as we, Portuguese do, we just squeeze the words together, it became VOSSEMECÊ (or VOCEMECÊ, because we are poor spellers). What happened next? More squeezing: VOMECÊ! Since it wasn't tight enough, we did it (Yey!), and we now say... VOCÊ! (Yep. Main course served. The dessert comes next...) So, nowadays it can be found (said and spelled) as: 'CÊ. And I am pleased to finish with: «Vai um cafezinho?»
Marta, I owe you a cafezinho! ☕️
I’m in awe of your nuanced understanding, it’s not easy to pick up the literally unspoken rules. One added perspective is on “você” sounding snobbish- older people would say “você é estrebaria”, meaning, “você is what you use in the horse stables”. On a meta-level: “figure out how to address me, you don’t get to default to the simplest norm”. So not only it’s complicated but there is a high social cost to getting it wrong… so I would use the word “snobbish“ but in its original meaning, “sans noblesse” ☺️ Apologies if that complicates the Portuguese life further
Thank you for this comment—it helps to show the nuance of the issue!
I read this amusing piece over breakfast and it brought back several conversations we had in Sweden about the topic of politeness. I remember appreciating your nuanced reading of this issue, and it allowed me not to take the uncanny mix of reserve and plain rudeness in Scandinavian manners too personally (I still did though, a friend of mine summarised Swedish customer service philosophy with the phrase "How may we not help you?"). But when it comes to "you" and "thou," I always assumed that "thou" dropped out of the language as a result of the reformation, but I might be entirely wrong about this and I never bothered to research it. Is it not the case that "thou" disappeared after the Protestants started using it to address God in a more personal fashion (assuming the deity is a singular entity), the paradoxical result being that it then could no longer fill the role of informal "you" in everyday conversation. So people just stopped using it altogether. Is there any scientific foundation for this hypothesis?
Michael, thank you for your thoughtful comment. Historical linguistics is not my area of speciality, so I can't speak with much authority here, but my understanding is that it was more the influence of societal changes that pushed out "thou" and caused "you"—seen as the more polite form—to take over. As far as I know, "thou" was always used when addressing God directly, as is typical in other European languages. (Not sure what God's preference is!)
By the way, I love the expression "How may we not help you?" Very funny!
I see! But one would not say “tu” (the equivalent of “thou”) to God in French? Definitely not in Dutch: “uw wil geschiede…”
I will have to ask my French-speaking informants and get back to you. I think that in other Romance languages, using "tu" with God is quite common, but I will check.
And I who thought German was puzzling... Really enjoyed reading this, which popped up just as I looked for a break from the annoying newsletter of mine I'm trying to wrap up!
I’m glad you enjoyed it, Gaia! Languages are a never-ending source of amusement AND confusion, don’t you think?
Absolutely. That's (partly) the reason why I started my newsletter on multiligualism. :)
Thanks for this piece1 Turkish, like German, has a formal version of "you." When I first learned English, I found it challenging to adjust to a language without this distinction. But now, after living in English-speaking countries for 30 years, I find it difficult to use the formal "you" when I switch back to Turkish.
Thanks, Selda! Interesting—do you also find that the norms around who should be addressed formally have changed at all in Turkey during the past 30 years?
Not really. I think it’s still quite a strong norm.
I guess that's not too surprising. I guess it's not too surprising that there hasn't been as strong a shift towards informality in Turkey. I do wish I could speak Turkish—it's a fascinating language from a linguistic perspective.
It‘s yinz
Good to know. Never seen it written!
Language is so fun! And confusing. And fun. In that order 😆
When I first learned Swedish I couldn’t believe there was no word for ‘please’.
I feel you need to deep dive on Finnish. That language is just mind blowing 😂
*in Australia we use ‘youse’ too. But not y’all.
Yes, Lisa, I agree: Language is fun. And confusing. The lack of "please" in Swedish is funny, as are the things you have to say instead, such as "snälla du"—literally "nice you". 😂
I am not at all competent to talk about Finnish, I'm afraid. Maybe I can find someone else who is.
I don’t many Finnish language learners who feel competent either 😂
And the “Tack, snälla!” makes me chuckle. If people on Åland you know they’re either 1. Swedish, 2. Have lived in Sweden or 3. Listen to too much Swedish TV or radio 😂😂