Great conversation, guys. I caught the bulk of it, but a client meeting pulled me away towards the end. Although I'm not American, the topic of identity and integration resonates with all of us who live abroad. It wasn't anything I had thought much about as I'm still a noobie foreigner compared to you and Dan, but it sparked my interest in the subject and got me thinking more about how it will shape my longterm presence in Belize.
One thing I have in common with Belizeans and other nationalities that Americans don't is Commonwealth membership. Being Canadian, I share this, albeit fragile, similarity. In Belize, it offers a minor financial benefit, as residency fees for citizens of Commonwealth nations are slightly cheaper than those for other Western nations.
Thanks, Simo! I'm glad you enjoyed this. I'm intrigued by the question of Commonwealth membership, and what it means to people. I have always wondered whether there were tangible benefits in addition to the more symbolic ones. (To me it's always seemed a bit weird, given that it's for former colonies, kind of like a Hollywood mogul having a club for all his ex-wives.)
I am a 67 year old woman who was born on Vancouver Island, Canada of British parents, lived in southern Mexico ages 6-9, and moved to the US in 1967. I have lived in Oregon, Utah, California, Texas, and Massachusetts (for the past 25+ years). I have been able to pass as American, have wished to be English, but felt most at home in Mexico and Texas. There is a British saying “neither fish nor fowl nor good red herring” to describe something that doesn’t fit into any category, that is unclassifiable. I identify with this aspect of being an expat. While not really identifying as American, the current upheaval in this country has made me realize how I have bought into the American ideals you described, the land of opportunity where one can assume that striving will allow you to create the self you want to be. I will add that this is a country of bold ideas and, largely, warm and generous people. I shed tears every day and mourn its destruction. So perhaps I have become American and have been extraordinarily fortunate to have the opportunity to become so. Having said that, I am very anxious to leave.
Thank you for sharing all this, Dorothy. It sounds like you really do understand the migrant experience. It also sounds like you value the US for many of the same reasons I (we) do, and I would argue that in that sense, you are perfectly American. What it is now coming to mean to be American may be something quite different, however. So I certainly understand your desire to leave. I wish you all the best!
So maybe the world is not our oyster after all. I loved the interview between the two of you. Such a great and fun and deep conversation.
I have never been very patriotic or nationalistic despite having a Mum and Dad fighting two wars for our independence. And I loved the idea of being a global citizen back in the days when it was the shit so to speak. Now I am sad and bewildered and hoping for some kind of new iteration that's perhaps a little less naive and self righteous but less violent and narrow than the current nationalism that's spreading all over the world.
Btw, yes - if you move to Finland and then learn Finnish we will love you for the rest of your life 😁😁
Hi Carina! Oh I feel this--I am very much the sad & bewildered cosmopolitan looking for the next vision. I think I live abroad to chase this, or maybe to map its limits over and over again? How different from the lives of your parents, no? Easy for me to envy that clarity of identity & struggle--with zero understanding of their sacrifice. Thanks for sharing!
Dan you gave me even more food for thought. I think for me the idea of living abroad, is perhaps what's driving me more than actually moving somewhere else.
You two are raising some interesting points here, such as the tension between being willing to fight for your homeland vs. being willing to leave it behind. Also: Is it perhaps possible to live abroad _mentally_ without actually moving? Hmmm. That would be good news for our substacks!
So many gems in this discussion. Sorry to have missed it live, but I loved listening to it podcast style on my morning and afternoon commute. It really was a conversation between two modern day philosophers (also two of the most genuine gents on Substack) who forced me to consider so much about how I view my own identity. As someone who, for most of my life, has not felt like a typical American, I am also hyperaware that, at 45 years old, I very much am. I see lots of journaling and reflection is in my future on this topic!
For me, as the dutiful first born rule-follower in my family who was destined to follow the traditional path of high school —> university —> marriage/career/house, I’ve always deeply yearned for a life beyond our borders, a life that aligns with the things that it seems many of my country-folk don’t seem to value. Unfortunately, in so any ways now, I feel locked into the life my wife and I have built for ourselves because of choices made before our brains were fully developed. We were both working in public education, married, and living in a home we purchased by the time we were 25, for crying out loud! So indeed, for better or worse, we have become those Americans who look to our retirement (Universe-willing, ten years from now) as our time to escape into something new and exciting. Could we abandon what we’ve built here and dive head first into a scary new adventure? Absolutely, but I’m not sure I’m brave enough. Meanwhile, I hope that I would never approach the opportunity to live abroad as a flippant thing or as a way to “save” on my fixed income, but instead that I always do what it takes to be of the community, not just in it.
Thanks for this robust conversation, Gregory and Dan. I hope to be more like both of you when I grow up!
Hi Tim! Thanks for listening, and for this lovely comment! Look, I'm a backslid first-born son myself, one who wakes up some days wondering where I'd be if I'd just quit one less decent job. There's deep wisdom in wandering and deep wisdom in staying put. Maybe deep down they start to overlap? No wrong choice, just forking paths. Gregory's right--stay loose and curious and see what comes. You're a teacher, man. That's bravery enough for anything, and anywhere. Take care out there, brother. Keep in touch!
I'm thinking about Dan quitting his decent jobs and about Tim saying "We were both working in public education, married, and living in a home we purchased by the time we were 25, for crying out loud!" It really seems to be a critical question how early we commit, doesn't it? At 25, I hadn't even _applied_ to graduate school yet. I goofed off for the longest time, then I did something serious, and now I'm goofing off again, I suppose. So there are probably infinite paths. The key question seems to be "what are you actually committed to?"
What a beautiful, heartfelt comment, Tim! Thank you. I don't in any way look down on people who follow the "traditional" path that was laid out for them. But if you do feel that perhaps you want something different, I for one am of the opinion that we can count on a very small number of fingers the lives that we get to live. So maybe making a big, scary decision isn't always a bad idea. Or maybe there are compromises to be found. I think the key is to approach life with a flexible mindset of growth. I'm happy to keep discussing all this with you. Be well!
Engaging and thought provoking--thank you!
Thank you, Justine!
I'm 15 minutes into this and already
-My subconscious ideas about what it means to be American were magically articulated by you gents
-I got a new trick for adding depth to questions from Dean
This is why y'all are some of my favorite people to read on here
Aw, how sweet! Thanks, Rebecca!
Thanks, Rebecca! Glad. you enjoyed it!
Great conversation, guys. I caught the bulk of it, but a client meeting pulled me away towards the end. Although I'm not American, the topic of identity and integration resonates with all of us who live abroad. It wasn't anything I had thought much about as I'm still a noobie foreigner compared to you and Dan, but it sparked my interest in the subject and got me thinking more about how it will shape my longterm presence in Belize.
One thing I have in common with Belizeans and other nationalities that Americans don't is Commonwealth membership. Being Canadian, I share this, albeit fragile, similarity. In Belize, it offers a minor financial benefit, as residency fees for citizens of Commonwealth nations are slightly cheaper than those for other Western nations.
Kudos to you both for a great convo!
Thanks, Simo! I'm glad you enjoyed this. I'm intrigued by the question of Commonwealth membership, and what it means to people. I have always wondered whether there were tangible benefits in addition to the more symbolic ones. (To me it's always seemed a bit weird, given that it's for former colonies, kind of like a Hollywood mogul having a club for all his ex-wives.)
I am a 67 year old woman who was born on Vancouver Island, Canada of British parents, lived in southern Mexico ages 6-9, and moved to the US in 1967. I have lived in Oregon, Utah, California, Texas, and Massachusetts (for the past 25+ years). I have been able to pass as American, have wished to be English, but felt most at home in Mexico and Texas. There is a British saying “neither fish nor fowl nor good red herring” to describe something that doesn’t fit into any category, that is unclassifiable. I identify with this aspect of being an expat. While not really identifying as American, the current upheaval in this country has made me realize how I have bought into the American ideals you described, the land of opportunity where one can assume that striving will allow you to create the self you want to be. I will add that this is a country of bold ideas and, largely, warm and generous people. I shed tears every day and mourn its destruction. So perhaps I have become American and have been extraordinarily fortunate to have the opportunity to become so. Having said that, I am very anxious to leave.
Thank you for sharing all this, Dorothy. It sounds like you really do understand the migrant experience. It also sounds like you value the US for many of the same reasons I (we) do, and I would argue that in that sense, you are perfectly American. What it is now coming to mean to be American may be something quite different, however. So I certainly understand your desire to leave. I wish you all the best!
So maybe the world is not our oyster after all. I loved the interview between the two of you. Such a great and fun and deep conversation.
I have never been very patriotic or nationalistic despite having a Mum and Dad fighting two wars for our independence. And I loved the idea of being a global citizen back in the days when it was the shit so to speak. Now I am sad and bewildered and hoping for some kind of new iteration that's perhaps a little less naive and self righteous but less violent and narrow than the current nationalism that's spreading all over the world.
Btw, yes - if you move to Finland and then learn Finnish we will love you for the rest of your life 😁😁
Hi Carina! Oh I feel this--I am very much the sad & bewildered cosmopolitan looking for the next vision. I think I live abroad to chase this, or maybe to map its limits over and over again? How different from the lives of your parents, no? Easy for me to envy that clarity of identity & struggle--with zero understanding of their sacrifice. Thanks for sharing!
Dan you gave me even more food for thought. I think for me the idea of living abroad, is perhaps what's driving me more than actually moving somewhere else.
Yes! I see this around the internet a lot...but I ain't throwing stones, I definitely feel it too :)
You two are raising some interesting points here, such as the tension between being willing to fight for your homeland vs. being willing to leave it behind. Also: Is it perhaps possible to live abroad _mentally_ without actually moving? Hmmm. That would be good news for our substacks!
So many gems in this discussion. Sorry to have missed it live, but I loved listening to it podcast style on my morning and afternoon commute. It really was a conversation between two modern day philosophers (also two of the most genuine gents on Substack) who forced me to consider so much about how I view my own identity. As someone who, for most of my life, has not felt like a typical American, I am also hyperaware that, at 45 years old, I very much am. I see lots of journaling and reflection is in my future on this topic!
For me, as the dutiful first born rule-follower in my family who was destined to follow the traditional path of high school —> university —> marriage/career/house, I’ve always deeply yearned for a life beyond our borders, a life that aligns with the things that it seems many of my country-folk don’t seem to value. Unfortunately, in so any ways now, I feel locked into the life my wife and I have built for ourselves because of choices made before our brains were fully developed. We were both working in public education, married, and living in a home we purchased by the time we were 25, for crying out loud! So indeed, for better or worse, we have become those Americans who look to our retirement (Universe-willing, ten years from now) as our time to escape into something new and exciting. Could we abandon what we’ve built here and dive head first into a scary new adventure? Absolutely, but I’m not sure I’m brave enough. Meanwhile, I hope that I would never approach the opportunity to live abroad as a flippant thing or as a way to “save” on my fixed income, but instead that I always do what it takes to be of the community, not just in it.
Thanks for this robust conversation, Gregory and Dan. I hope to be more like both of you when I grow up!
- An American who also talks with his hands
Hi Tim! Thanks for listening, and for this lovely comment! Look, I'm a backslid first-born son myself, one who wakes up some days wondering where I'd be if I'd just quit one less decent job. There's deep wisdom in wandering and deep wisdom in staying put. Maybe deep down they start to overlap? No wrong choice, just forking paths. Gregory's right--stay loose and curious and see what comes. You're a teacher, man. That's bravery enough for anything, and anywhere. Take care out there, brother. Keep in touch!
I'm thinking about Dan quitting his decent jobs and about Tim saying "We were both working in public education, married, and living in a home we purchased by the time we were 25, for crying out loud!" It really seems to be a critical question how early we commit, doesn't it? At 25, I hadn't even _applied_ to graduate school yet. I goofed off for the longest time, then I did something serious, and now I'm goofing off again, I suppose. So there are probably infinite paths. The key question seems to be "what are you actually committed to?"
What a beautiful, heartfelt comment, Tim! Thank you. I don't in any way look down on people who follow the "traditional" path that was laid out for them. But if you do feel that perhaps you want something different, I for one am of the opinion that we can count on a very small number of fingers the lives that we get to live. So maybe making a big, scary decision isn't always a bad idea. Or maybe there are compromises to be found. I think the key is to approach life with a flexible mindset of growth. I'm happy to keep discussing all this with you. Be well!